14 January 2009

Patchwerk? Don't even bother

I ventured into Naxxramas for the first time last night. Still healing :(

We started in the arachnid quarter with two healers. For my first healing raid, it was a bit hairy. Anub'Rekhan took three attempts. On each wipe, I lost the tank; first time because I got silenced by insect swarm, second time because I got impaled and ended up out of range while the tank was kiting. A dps warrior helpfully told me to stay on the tank next time. Gotcha.

We lost a dps at this point and replaced them with a healer. Less pressure versus longer fights — I'm not sure which I'd take. (I'm in two minds about three-person healing, more on this another time.)

Either way, Grand Widow Faerlina was much easier. We wiped once when a retadin killed all four adds on the first frenzy. (Melee again, you see a pattern?) Otherwise, nothing to report. We came, we smacked, we looted.

At this point, we decided to skip Maexxna and go play with Patchwerk. Don't ask me why. I think we thought Patchwerk would be easier. I now know the folly of that misconception.

Don't get me wrong, I know that Patchwerk is probably an easier fight technically. Even for the healers, where chain casting and healing through hateful strikes is a mana drain, it's still a pretty simple proposition. But I didn't really appreciate the numbers involved until I read up about the fight this morning.

With 4,320,000 hit points and a 6 minute enrage, a 10-man Patchwerk requires a combined raid dps of 12,000. Let's say the tank and offtank can put out 1,000 dps. (Is that a good estimate?) We took three healers, so that means the five dps each have to maintain 2,000 dps for the entire fight. That's pretty sobering. Three of our dps were significantly short of that. We had lost the fight before we even began.

It didn't help that our the two melee dps couldn't manage their agro and got smashed by hateful strikes in the first 20 seconds. Twice. Even with three healers, we couldn't react quick enough. (If you play melee, let me know: is this tricky? Am I being harsh on them? How hard is it to stay third on threat?)

On healing, I'd say we will be fine. I would even possibly consider dropping one healer for the extra dps next time we attempt him. As long as the tanks and melee know what they're doing, the healing is quite manageable, if a little intense. With three healers, there was so much duplication and overhealing I'm not sure how much value that extra person adds. I think if they were a different class of healer, it might have been different. A chain-healing shaman or a hot-headed druid might have worked quite well, but we were three priests, each throwing out our biggest heals possible.

But on dps, we have a lot of work to do before we venture back into Construct. I think we'll be sticking to Arachnid and Plague from now on.


Anonymous said...

Melee dps should be "dipping into" the goo...it takes half their hitpoints--do NOT heal them...keeps them from taking Hatefuls.

Leigh said...

Ya have it wrong on the Hateful Strikes. It affects those in the top three on threat who are in melee range and also takes into account their HP.

So in a 10 man setup you will have your MT and your soak tank. Any melee needs to make sure their health is significantly lower then that of the tanks, particularly the OT. So deselect stam buffs and deselect commanding shout if a warrior is putting it up. Healing needs to be fast as it is calculated on current health.

Tank DPS is about 1K or so on bosses but I personally wouldn't factor that in. 2K DPS is not that difficult to put out, because you can stand still and do full rotations, DPS warriors who do take hatefulls have pretty much unlimited rage. I done him on 25 man the other day (we only had 21 ppl actually!) and came 5th on the DPS meters with 3.6K DPS. 2 Hunters, a rogue and a DPS warrior were ahead of me. We bet the enrage by 30 seconds or so

As for your raid setup, two healers is more then enough for Naxx, the only exception is parts of the Military Quarter and parts of Construct, at that point a hybrid switches to help out if need be. Other then that the 4 quarters of Naxx are doable with 2 healers!!

Drew said...

Actually, the dip in the goo does not work any longer, and it is the top three on heroic; it is the two top on damage meter for 10 man. On 10 man, your MT should be the off tank for this fight because of the hatefulls. Have your OT stay in first place.
We had a little trouble at first when our dps was lower also. What we did, is the healers were dps'ing as well. I as a paladin tank, sat next to him, dropped conc and what not, and healed at the same time. Just make sure not to neglect the raid lol. Our shammy got a little overzelous.

Jacob said...

Let's say the tank and offtank can put out 1,000 dps. (Is that a
good estimate?)

That's a bit low, but it works fine for an estimate. Well-geared
should be above 1500 dps.

It didn't help that our the two melee dps couldn't manage their
agro and got smashed by hateful strikes in the first 20 seconds.

Ow! That speaks poorly for both your tanks and your dps.

Your tanks should have so much rage (or mana) coming in that they
should be able to put out insane threat. If your off-tank is having a
bad night, maybe his threat is poor and the melee is catching up.

Your dps should install Omen, and watch it. Always keep your threat
below the off tank, and you won't get hit. (If you get hit, you die -
the healers can't help you with these size hits.)

Mordèth said...

If melee gives the tanks 5 seconds they should have enough threath to last them out the fight. Blow all CD in the beginning so that you get them back at the end off the fight.

Patch is a little gear test, my guild had some problems first time around, but now its just a matter of how fast.

Tanks DPS will increase with gear as mentioned, but 1000-1300dps isnt unrealistic for a tank with started gear.

Going with 3 healers in the beginning will only be positive, as the gear improves go down to two healers and bring a oomkin/SP/ele shammy.

Good luck in there :)

Anonymous said...

as mentioned before by leigh, have the MT take second point, the OT is leading.

As far as DPS is concerned, only 2 rules apply.

Rule #1: Do not TAKE aggro.
Rule #2: inflict as much damage as possible without breaking Rule #1

I've raided all 3 roles, tank, melee DPS and healer, and all I can say is, yes, patchwerk is a benchmark :D

Be sure to have fun, and I hope you can do "/cast Shadowform" again soon!

Leigh said...

Confused with 25/10 man strat but in essence it's the same just not about the HP!! Instead of 3 as the lads pointed out he attacks the top 2 on the aggro list within melee range. So your offtank should be doing a lot of threat from the amount of damage he takes, be it mana or rage regeneration it will be through the roof. If your melee outgears the OT significantly give it the old 3 sunder rule timewise before opening up!!

Kestrel said...

Jacob covered most of the points I was going to make. Our tanks routinely put out 1500 DPS; our expectation for the DPS is a minimum of 1400 in Naxx-10

If you're using Recount, it can be configured to show the raid's total DPS in the top line. That'll give you a realistic view of how well you may (or may not) do against Patches.

Maexxna's easier. ;)